Heinrich Rohrer: "Problems lead us to inventions"
Heinrich Rohrer: "Problems lead us to inventions"
At the inauguration of the Donostia International Physics Center (DIPC), recently opened in Donostia, Rohrer was guest of honor.
In 1986 he won the Nobel Prize in Physics for making the tunnel-effect microscope, right?
The truth is that the Nobel Prize is not "won". It is to publicly accept a work or life dedicated to research. Therefore, the Nobel Prize is not won by oneself. They deliver it. This is the main difference between science and sport. You don't work to win something. Science cannot be developed according to the competition.
But for street people it is important to identify a certain scientist with something.
Yes, that is the idea of the Nobel Prize society. But it should be understood as acceptance. It's like paying homage to an actor. It is done simply because it is a good actor. Also, that means you don't have to make such a big discovery. It can be good research, even if you haven't got big inventions. Anyone is able to do extraordinary and punctual work, but often that means nothing.
Did you then have a great team working?
At that time at IBM we were about 200 people working in the same laboratory. This way you get a relaxed atmosphere and you can analyze new topics without any problems. There were many people working on superconductivity. And from there came beautiful ideas.
But then does working in such a large group influence the results?
Yes, no doubt. In those two years we were awarded two Nobel prizes. In 1987 I returned to Stockholm for what was done in our laboratory. Karl Alexander Muller received the award for his work on superconductivity. It was a very good time for us.
The tunnel effect microscope is based on the probability of an event that explores quantum mechanics.
The electric current is also based on quantum mechanics. There is also a probability of electron movement. And when you create the electrical potential in a circuit, you expect it to be current and so it happens, but the probability is being met.
How does the idea of the tunnel effect microscope arise?
The question you would have to ask me otherwise, because it is a reverse process. I also worked on superconductivity. Then we wanted to analyze the concrete problem, the oxidation process of some materials. We wanted to know how this process arises and develops. To do this we had to know exactly where oxidation occurred. To solve it I started working with Gerd Karl Binnig. So we thought we had to know very closely the structure of the material we had and we knew how to get it. However, we started to work very complex. Afterwards, we were simplifying the concepts and when the model was simple enough we got the objective. It was a two-year job, but if from the beginning we sought simplicity, the maximum would be two months.
So, didn't they want to do the microscope?
No, and once we had done it we didn't care. It is very curious. In science concrete problems lead us to inventions and not the other way around. This is the case with the microscope. People went on with the idea and I have to confess that I had completely broken with that subject. Now they use very complex technologies and have very concrete things in their hands.
The atoms of the materials are visible with the tunnel effect microscope. Can that be your special invention?
The concept of “seeing” generates problems. Imagine that we go to the street and that we take a picture of a tree. In the photo do we see the tree? No. We only see the representation of the tree. But, of course, the tree is said to look. The microscope does something similar. "reads" the material on a very small scale and thereby creates another type of representation. But it is as false as the photo.
Can it affect the structure of this material?
For example, you can change the location of atoms. However, this is not easy to do. When we receive something from the earth on the macroscopic scale, there is competition against the force of gravity. The link should be stronger than gravity. On the atomic scale, however, gravity has no great influence. The strength to overcome is that which unites the atom with the material. And when you have caught it, the same problem of liberation arises. Therefore, it is not an easy task, but it can be done.
He attended the inauguration of this DIPC center. Did you know San Sebastian before?
Yes, about six years ago I said here a lecture. It is a very interesting city and not only from the point of view of tourism. Good research requires a certain quality of life. Essential. This city offers an atmosphere of these characteristics. San Sebastian is an ideal city for research. And keep in mind that this Swiss tells you.
Why these kinds of centers next to the university?
You have to insist on something I mentioned at the conference of the event: because it will bring outside people. It is very important that different scientists work together, but not only scientists from different fields. I think it is essential to gather scientists from different cultures. 40% of workers hired at our Swiss research centre are external.
And this center will accomplish that goal, right?
Yes. One of its objectives is to facilitate relations with the outside. It will allow to create this type of collaboration, a type of collaboration that may not be achieved in the university. On the other hand, a basic research will be carried out that is also very important. There are two types of research. One generates enormous wisdom and the other seeks applications of that wisdom. The work of this center will also cover the gap between the two.
Buletina
Bidali zure helbide elektronikoa eta jaso asteroko buletina zure sarrera-ontzian