“We have to explain the consequences scientifically, the good and the bad.”
The CAF-Elhuyar Awards have given us the excuse to meet again with the microbiologist Miren Basaras Ibarzabal. In fact, he is a close collaborator of the magazine Elhuyar, always ready to answer questions and explain his vision. He acts in this way with all the media, and in general with society as a whole, and whenever he can, he does so in Basque. It is for this reason that the CAF-Elhuyar Merit Prize 2024 has been awarded. At the same time, it is worth noting the work that is being done in the research. In fact, the microbiota is now being studied, especially in relation to sexually transmitted infections.
Happy birthday to you! In awarding the prize, the Elhuyar Foundation Board of Trustees has made special mention of your effort to socialize scientific explanations during the pandemic. How did you receive the recognition?
Very happy, really. When they called me on the phone and told me that I was the chosen one, I was moved. I didn't believe it. The truth is that a recognition like this gives you the strength to move forward.
Many will recognize you for this informative work, but you are also a researcher. In your career, what was it before: science and research or the socialization of knowledge?
[Answers without hesitation] Research. As soon as I finished my bachelor’s degree in biology, I started with my doctoral thesis. I knew I wanted to investigate. The disclosure came later. The thesis has to be communicated and then I started teaching and, very quickly, to the Basque students. There was a small age difference between the students and us, and communication was close. Even outside the university, friends and family were asking questions: What is a virus? What are you investigating? This also aroused the male, to see that people have a desire to know. And I also think it's important to show what researchers are doing, why we're doing all this. I think I saw that need, and that's why I started that path.
Looking into it, why did you start? What motivated you?
When I was doing my bachelor’s degree, I already had the desire to enter a laboratory and see what was being done there and what it was like to investigate. Others may have had a reference person; I don’t remember having anyone in mind when choosing this path.
First, I went into the genetics lab. They were researching with sheep's bran, proteins, and that's where I did my thesis at the time. It is equivalent to the current end-of-degree work. I also really liked the field of microbiology and had the opportunity to focus my thesis there. That's how I started.
At the beginning, were you aware of how important microbiology really is and how many branches it has?
No, not really, no. At that first moment, I started in environmental biology and then I went into the study of microorganisms that influence human pathology, especially hepatitis C. At that time he was in a state of heightened tension, linked to AIDS. It was hard at that time. Then I realized the importance of microbiology.
Not only in the clinical field, but also in the food industry, for example, think about how important it is. But, back to health, then we didn’t know what role our microbiota, the microorganisms we have inside, played in our defense. This idea seemed strange at first, but then look at the evolution of this area. We know more and more, and we are seeing that it is related to different aspects that we had not imagined before: the functioning of the brain, autoimmune and neurodegenerative diseases... And they are not only bacteria; we are also increasingly talking about viruses.
What are you researching now?
Above all, we are investigating the role of the microbiota, especially in sexually transmitted infections. Because we are seeing that in the vagina and in our sexual apparatus we have different microorganisms whose presence or absence facilitates or hinders the presence of some sexually transmitted infections. Therefore, we are studying the relationship between microbiota and pathogens in this ecosystem.
For example, chlamydia have spread widely in recent years. This is influenced by several factors: lifestyle, diet, and, of course, the lack of protection, the lack of prevention. In addition, we observe that, according to the microbiota, a woman has a greater or lesser risk of vaginosis; if the balance of microorganisms is broken, the infection is facilitated.
That’s what I’ve been doing for the last few years. I have also previously been researching human papillomavirus and cervical cancer and other cancers in both women and men.
Human papillomavirus vaccination has recently been extended to boys in Spain. At first, when the girls began to be vaccinated, some took it with suspicion.
Hopefully they’ll get the kids too. I have also been researching vaccines, and there has also been evolution. When the vaccination against human papillomavirus began in Spain for girls, the cases of those with side effects were widely reported in the media. There is always a risk of side effects, we know that it will harm a certain percentage. But because of the impact he had, fear arose. It seems that this fear has disappeared, since the benefits of the vaccine are very obvious, but the phenomenon has not disappeared.
We have also seen it in COVID-19, and not only with vaccines, but also with other issues. This phenomenon of denial, denialism, has not disappeared.
How does this affect you?
It affected me a lot at first, I didn’t understand. Now, I think the more I resonate with these groups, the worse it is. It seems to me that our mission is to explain the potential scientific benefits, let’s say, of vaccines, as well as the risks they pose. The same with any medicine. Everything has a risk, life has a risk.
Drinking a beer also has consequences. We have to explain these consequences scientifically, good and bad. I think we should go down that road and not so much as deny what others are saying. Because if we do that, we echo them, and they are also fortified. The pandemic period is the most obvious example.
That's probably the hardest time you've ever had.
Yeah, because I wasn't used to being in the media all the time. Having that visibility is hard. And besides, you had to stay up to date on the research that was coming out all the time. It is difficult to act in this context of uncertainty.
And maybe even more difficult being a woman?
It’s not the same for men and women, is it? I wouldn’t say all the media, but some have called men more than women, even though these men are not so knowledgeable. There is this bias.
At least then, you also received recognition from the General Council of Official Colleges of Biologists and the Spanish Conference of Deans of Biology.
Oh, yeah, yeah. And also from the people. To be honest, I also got some very strong criticism, and I got a lot of messages from these deniers. At first it was hard for me, but then I said, “I’m saying what science says, right?” And that’s right, I have that guarantee. And on the street, yes, they thanked me on the street, and that's encouraging.
Do you think we learned?
Actually, I don't know. I believe we have learned something, but the reality is that we have learned very little. And it's also a little socially understandable. On the other hand, the system of prevention in public health has improved, but not at the global level.
In fact, I recently published a book, “One Health, an Unattainable Goal,” and I think we’re a long way from reaching that goal. It is essential to have a Single Health approach and to act accordingly. It is difficult, but if we want to control something, prevent it all over the world, then it must be done in all countries. We should at least learn that. But we have also seen it with T-baztang; we act as if it were an African problem.
The spread of avian influenza, however, is not occurring in Africa, but in the United States. Do you think they’re doing enough?
I don't think so. There must be greater control, more rigorous diagnosis and prevention. There are big gaps. And we are seeing how it has spread to the whole world in birds; then from birds to mammals; in mammals, it is spreading in cattle; cases of people have also appeared... Fortunately, at this time it is not transmitted very well from one person to another, but if it exceeds that
And seasonal flu should also be considered. It seems to me that we allow it to circulate too easily, thereby increasing the risk of association and recombination of different strains. In my opinion, the seasonal influenza vaccination campaign should be extended further to the population.
On the other hand, scientific and pharmaceutical companies should do a lot of research to obtain effective drugs to prevent this avian flu. Then maybe another flu will appear, but you've got the technology ready, you've got the way. It is true that pharmaceutical companies win in these cases, but that is logical, they are companies. However, they must have the resources to research and obtain the right medicines and diagnostic tests to be able to control the risk. If governments provide subsidies for this purpose, then it is necessary to ensure that the resulting result is ethically channelled.
That's in people. Not to mention the animals and the environment.
That's what it is. All of this must be incorporated into the One Health approach. I think it's hard for society to understand, but it's inevitable.
The viruses known today are very few in number. That is, it is much more unknown than known. So we have to be very attentive to what is happening all over the world. What is happening because the permafrost is breaking? What is being produced there, what microorganisms are being released? All this falls within the concept of One Health.
I believe that human beings are not isolated, but connected to what we have around us and influenced by what we do. What we do, and what we don't do.
Where do you see the main challenges?
In what we have just mentioned, in the elaboration of strategies with the concept of One Health. And they must be done on a global scale. This includes the problem of resistant bacteria.
To understand this, I think we need to divulge it again and again. We have to make it public how important it is, for example, if I take antibiotics at home, if I have any leftovers later, to take them to the pharmacy and not throw them in the trash. We’ve improved on some things, it’s true, but we need to keep building on that, starting with basic education.
And in your area of research? What are the challenges, and what fills you?
We have many, many challenges. We’ve talked about resistances; and I, going deeper into my work studying the microbiota, that’s where I have the challenge.
And it fills me, with a hypothesis or when you're looking for something, if you confirm that hypothesis or find what you were looking for... it's obviously satisfying. But even when you revoke it, you say: “This is not so.” And that leads you to another path. That fills me too.
And from a teacher perspective, what do the new generations give you?
I don’t know if this is very politically correct, but I have the impression that the old students were more motivated. Society has also changed and before there was more motivation to learn and also to speak Basque. There was more militancy. Maybe also because they were smaller groups... I don’t know why it happens, but for me it’s obvious. They only use Basque in the academic field; outside of that, there is a big gap.
I say to them: “You are the future doctors. It’s up to you to make this all better.” To make a medical history or not.
I was hoping for more progress in the Basque language, and if not, too. For example, they come to class much less. Digitalization gives them that opportunity, but they lose their relationship with others, asking each other questions, sharing points of view, discussing... All this is very enriching and I think it has been lost. It is true that we have a very individualistic society, but I still believe that the old students had a greater vocation.
Then you would ask the new generation for this: vocation and motivation.
That's what it is. They receive very good training and I would like them to pass on what they know to the patients and those around them. I'd like that.
They have a good example in you. Congratulations on the award.
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